Is Drinking a Sin?
Categories: Beer and Religion, Featured, General beer discussions, beer education
Written By: beer_scientist
To all our readers and searchers:
I rarely–let me rephrase–I’ve never written on religious topics on the site. Nate has posted a couple of things, but we don’t want to make this a Christian beer website. Nate and I both happen to be Christians, but our website loyalties are strictly beer. Of course, we were being quite literal when we called the site thankheavenforbeer. Be that as it may, I would like to write an article about whether or not it is actually sinful to drink beer. I realize this is a niche article and not everybody will appreciate, like, or even understand what all the fuss is about. Fortunately, there is a plenty of other unaffected, at least as far as “religion” is concerned, stuff on the site. Feel free to read on or go to another article.
Why am I even bothering to write this? Well, the answer is simple. I’ve seen multiple times that people have searched the exact terminology “Is drinking beer sinful?” or “Is drinking sinful?” and I want to be a vanguard against neo-prohibitionist logic. In some sense, I know very well that tortured soul who is asking this question, and I feel an obligation to answer him or her. I’ve asked this question and have found a reasonable answer, so I feel that I need to share it with anyone who is asking.
Tell me this: why do we blog? Is it to hear ourselves talk or are we all doing this very thing? Aren’t we assuming that people are seeking advice, instructions, answers, filling curiosities, seeking a community, wanting helpful replies and a myriad of other things when they get on the internet? It’s not inconsequential that the names of google and the like are called “search engines.” Isn’t that what a lot of being on the internet is about? So, in quite another sense, I am not simply aware of the tortured soul…I’m hoping to instruct it.
Our concerns in life run the gambit of the deadly serious to the inane. However, this question is somewhat serious to me. You may have to excuse me, this one time, when I don’t have the same sort of levity that I normally do. Also, as Polonius says in Hamlet, “Since brevity is the soul of wit, brief let me be.” Actually, I plain to expatiate on this one (normally, I try to keep articles under 500-600 words).
To answer the question in brief, drinking (in and of itself) is not sinful. I doubt many people will take issue with me when I say that drinking alcohol to excess is at least unwise (I’m avoiding the terminology of sinful here intentionally). That is to say, our bodies tell us that it was unwise when we have headaches and hangovers. I would even go so far as to say that drinking and driving with the consequence that we injure or kill someone is, whatever terminology you want to substitute here, sinful. Courts and legislature deem it to be criminal, and therefore, impose penalties on such individuals. Call it mere convention, but the very name penitentiary implies that we are performing penance for acts that are deemed “sinful,” which is to say perpetrators are wrong and improper in an act toward someone or something.
Be that as it may, let’s assume that the real question is actually, and I believe this is the marrow of the question, “Is drinking any alcoholic beverage fundamentally a sinful act?” Put another way, “Is alcohol inherently sinful?” This, I believe, is really the core question. Why would someone ask this question? Most of the time, I think some well-meaning individuals say that it is sinful. Fortunately, their listeners have the faculty to question this assessment, hence they search for the answer to whether or not it is. The well-meaning individual quotes a few bible verses, some statistics, their pastors, some other “authority,” some reason why it was a necessity then and not now, and call it a day. Simply stated, they build a cumulative case on slight grounds and find more evidence to amass in order to take others captive to their convictions about alcohol. As Paul says in Galatians, they came to spy on our freedom in Christ.
Okay, let’s take a couple bible verses first. ”Wine is a mocker, beer is a brawler.” This Proverb is an oft quoted verse used to bolster the case against alcohol. ”See, the bible is against drinking.” Let’s read the rest of the verse, which says, “And whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise.” Notice that drinking too much is the imperative section of the verse. Moreover, too much drinking is relegated to a lack of wisdom, not sin. Whatever else one may say, the beginning of Proverbs states its primary concern is not with sin but with wisdom. One need only read the first few verses in order to ascertain this fact. More specifically, the concern of Proverbs has to do with the context of wise court behavior (as in royal court). More often than not, the point being made is for what might be called Aristotle’s “Golden Mean.” That is to say that excess, greed (appetite or otherwise), and impulsive action is unwise.
In fact, ostensibly the same writer of Proverbs says in the Song of Songs 1:2 that “love is better than wine.” Of course, love is the primary concern, but the foundational assertion is based on the presumption wine is in of itself good to the point that it takes on a superlative quality. The same author who “prohibited” its use in Proverbs extols its virtue in Song of Songs? Is the bible wrong on this or has there been a misunderstanding? I doubt that the person who says alcohol is wrong would say that bible must be wrong on this account.
What about not drinking as a cultural expedient? ”Too much violence and loose living is associated with drinking,” some might say. It’s true enough that some people can’t handle drinking. It’s true enough that people wreck cars. Some people have, let’s say, lowered inhibitions. Many regretful mornings have happened when someone wakes up next to a stranger. There are various grounds for not drinking too much.
Still, I can’t help but point out that we are not talking about the same thing. The frequent, singular appeal often made by teetotalers has connections by one of two means. One, they point to excess. I feel that I’ve dealt with the first of the two pretty thoroughly. Two, they point to guilt by association. Do I mean like Jesus associating himself with “tax collectors and sinner”? I suppose I do. The problem with the second is that surface judgments are rarely accurate. (Also, the same person who would get on someone’s case about guilt by association might tell you something like, “God looks at the heart.” Apparently it’s not all cases and all times.)
Here is my solution. Fatty food is associated with obesity and heart disease. Heart issues are the number one killer in America. My idea is to abstain from fatty food totally. One step further, no food anymore; look at what it’s doing to some people. Frequency doesn’t matter, portion doesn’t matter, and the health of the person eating doesn’t matter. I’m just going to assume that everyone eats fatty foods excessively, will become fat, and will someday have a heart attack. Furthermore, anybody I see at McDonald’s (or anybody who knows someone who eats there) has an obvious obesity and eating problem. How could it be otherwise?
I’m simply pointing out that it’s amazing what we choose to find “sinful.” Actually, alcohol has some very well known health benefits, and maybe we could consider those as well. Many of we Christians could rail against our own excesses of eating, etc., before castigating someone who sips a beer.
“They needed it back then but we don’t now.” I’ve heard this one before. Essentially, the argument runs along the lines of wine was safer than water. It draws any enjoyment out of the drinking and relegates it to simply a matter of necessity. Interestingly though, there will be wine in heaven. Jesus said so explicitly. I guess heaven’s water system is not quite as good as the one we’ve got here. Seriously though, we will presumably not need to eat or drink in heaven to stay alive. Yet, in scripture’s depiction of heaven, we will be doing both. Why? I think this is the bible’s way of pointing out that some things were made for our enjoyment and satisfaction. The sheer joy of a good meal or good glass of wine seems to be of paramount importance to heaven. That it to say, that God wants us to enjoy what he has (at least in the bible’s view) given us by inspiring the creation of culinary and viniary (I made this word up) delight. More than this, it is interesting that people will make the argument about how beer was needed for safer living and then ignore the science that underscores the positive health effects of beer/wine.
I subscribe to (again, I think I coined this term) a theology of abundance. I’ve stated before that beer was probably discovered by accident. One major reason for this was excess grain. Here is a link to my theoretical reconstruction. The people were blessed with more than they could eat, so extra grain was used for different purposes. Beer and or wine was discovered incidentally and without knowledge of the positive health effects. The process for beer and wine (especially wine) was cultivated once its pleasing taste, effects, and qualities were accidentally discovered…perhaps divinely revealed is better terminology.
“The wine was weak, weaker, or not wine at all.” Have you heard this one? It’s amazing how many characters in scripture get drunk on something that doesn’t exist or is substantially weaker. Granted, they were unwise to drink excessively and do what they did. But their stories, like Proverbs, serve as a warning and not a prohibition. Admittedly, there were better and worse wines (like today), maybe even some weaker wines, but wine is weak because it is short on the grapes or it is watered down. It’s not that strong wine couldn’t be made. In fact, Jesus himself made the best (superlative) wine at the wedding feast in Galilee even after the guests had too much to drink. Did Jesus sin by making and distributing wine to intoxicated people? I suppose some people might stake their entire Christology on whether or not Jesus made, drank, and enjoyed real actual wine. Absurd. Perhaps our morality is not quite what the scriptures are on this one. I also want to add that any discussion on the Greek word oinos meaning anything other than truly fermented drink is absurd. Only ignorance drives this assumption. Furthermore, Jesus stated the danger of putting new wine into old wineskin, presumably because of the expansion during fermentation. The pressure of this weak, non-alcoholic, watered-down wine was such that it could bust animals skins, which are very tough, by the way.
Much more could be said about church history and the fact that the majority of it (even the pious!) has concluded that drinking is okay. In fact, it took the American Puritan ethic to deny and destroy the beauty of church history on this issue (one of the unfortunate consequences of the degradation of concern for church history bequeathed by Luther; I’m Protestant, so don’t get me wrong when I say that and the point is not about the factious church anyway).
BUT DON’T DRINK IF YOU ARE AN ALCOHOLIC!!!!
In conclusion, I could have turned this into a 200 page book, so I’m not being real systematic about method, taking every verse into account, etc. What I am doing is offering some thoughts on why I think people who believe that drinking is sinful are fundamentally misled in this misgivings. I understand if your aunt Flo was an alcoholic and died of liver disease. My own aunt died a few months ago due to severe alcoholism. But I want to say to all of you who are searching the terms mentioned at the beginning of the post, you were right to ask the question.
Let me ask a question, too. Is sin often excess and corruption of that which was made to be enjoyed? Isn’t one major understanding of sin is a perversion of something God made to be good? I would argue yes on both accounts. All the more, I can say to you that sinful drinking is excessive drinking, if you want the biblical perspective. I’m not a Buddhist, Muslim, or any other religion, so I won’t presume to answer the question from their doctrinal perspective. I can certainly answer it from the perspective of a Christian, beer lover, and beer writer. In my mind the unequivocal answer to your question is a resounding, “No!”
July 17th, 2009 at 5:54 am
great post. growing up in a non-traditional church background home, I was taught (not directly) that drinking was sinful.
today, I find myself more in the being an idiot while drinking is sinful camp. there is NO way that an inanimate object such as a bottle of wine or beer or whatever could possibly be sinful.
like a gun, or a car, or money, or whatever, it’s just another object that is manipulated by the wielder, for good or bad.
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July 17th, 2009 at 6:21 am
Thanks for the comment Russ, I feel the same way. Misuse of most things is harmful. I hate it at beer fests when I find “idiots” stumbling into me because it was less about the beer and more about the “trying to get the most bang for my buck.”
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:08 am
I love truth. Its just so good. We all have warped thinking about different things, this is a common one though. Thanks Mike. Oh, and hello Nasty.
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:40 am
I don’t mean to be rude or insulting, but I am always baffled by those who would deem consumption of alcohol as sinful. It’s a perspective that I truly don’t understand. From a Christian perspective, Mike provides ample Scriptural support for the non-sinfulness of alcohol consumption. The most telling, in my mind, example from Scripture is the wedding at Cana, where Jesus (who we profess to be God) takes water and turns it into wine. And the wind He made isn’t your ordinary wine.
I come from a Catholic background, which in more ways than one explains why I my bafflement. For one, during our worship services (Mass), we use real wine as an element in our Eucharistic celebration. Second, various religious orders have a long and proud tradition in brewing. Thirdly, we always hear of the Irish and Italian stereotypes (who are notably Catholic) enjoying their whiskey, stout, or vino.
Excess is where the consumption becomes sinful from a Catholic perspective. With food, we call it gluttony. With leisure, we call it sloth. With alcohol, we call it debauchery or drunkenness. And so on…
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:45 am
Thanks Tex. I wish there was some unification between most Protestants and Catholics on, at least, this one thing.
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Thanks Tex. I wish there was some unification between most Protestants and Catholics on, at least, this one thing.
Your welcome Joe. Nice to hear from you.
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July 17th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
I may post a little more on this in future. Especially, the if it causes someone to stumble approach.
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July 17th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
I also want to address the “how much is too much” question.
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July 17th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Questions to ask yourself before you drink.
1. Why are you drinking?
2. What purpose does it provide for you in your life?
3. Is drinking alcohol making your life any better?
4. Does drinking give you a closer relationship with God?
5. What example is it setting for your children when your trying to encourge them not to drink?
6. What good has ever come from drinking?
7. What sinful thoughts come to mind while you are drinking?
8. What sinful acts do you partake in when you are drinking?
9. When you drink is it really the taste you like or they feeling it gives you?
10. Are you only drinking socially just to “loosen up” because your not happy with your own personality without alcohol?
I’m trying to understand why sooo many Christians want to make excuses for their drinking instead of exposing drinking for what it is, reguardless of the amount! There is absolutely nothing in life that is GOOD that comes from drinking alcohol. Why do some Christians think that alcohol comes from God. Everything in this world does not come from God. Satin is alive today and he is out to kill steel and destroy our families. Really look deep into the lives of people around you who’s families have been broken apart from drinking. Is this what you want for yourself and your family. If people could just stop and look around and see how Satin has gotten ahold of peoples minds and is actually twisting Gods words and messing with their understanding of the Bible. Satin is tricky isn’t he? Remember he is very sneeky and very smart and works hard at catching people and especially Christians who are off guard. Trust me when you drink, you do not have your guard up. Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit our minds must be free and clear at ALL times because you never know when the day will come when you are standing before God and looking him face to face! When He comes don’t you want your mind to be clear for Him! We are on this Earth for the purpose of God and to live our lives to please Him. Yet most of us are here on this Earth caring so much more about pleasing men. This is what is so very very sad today!
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July 17th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
I am on board with “viniary”. nice coinage. i’d like to suggest “vinocious” as a nice semantical twist, for when you want to sound extra smart. Also, thanks about Aunt Flo.
Flava Dave.
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July 17th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Thanks Dave! I’m glad you stopped by…hoping to see you again.
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July 17th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
I hope Shelly reads this…I guess the rest of you can.
Shelly, Please excuse my tone because it’s one of irritation. Let me tell you first of all that I agree some people twist scripture. Unfortunately, it’s people in your position of self-righteous indignation about something which is a matter of conscience. Did you even actually read the article? I want to point out that actual scripture is missing from your reply (except the quote from Luke, which is not contextually used of drinking alcohol). I substantiated what I said with scripture. You are quoting your pastor or church’s position on the matter. Show me where I’m twisting scripture. I’m not being a know it all when I say this but I do have a Master’s Degree in Biblical Studies and have a Bachelor’s degree in Pre-Seminary Studies. Just show me where I’ve misread.
Here is your problem, so far as I see it. You are starting from reading scripture from your current belief and cultural situation and assuming that this is the proper way to understand scripture. What do you do with the fact that Jesus drank wine (and don’t give me the “it’s not real wine” speech). No credible student of the bible will tell you otherwise. I guess Jesus sinned by drinking. Now we have a sinful Jesus who is unable to save humanity. That’s a poor trade off.
Since you started with your questions I’ll humor you by answering them:
1. I drink because I enjoy the taste qualities in beer, I think that it is an enjoyable beverage, and I don’t assume that it’s inherently evil like you do. Jesus was a good example on how to drink and not sin…that’s good enough for me.
2. It provides me with the opportunity to experience multiple aspects of being human. I enjoy a whole range of things that God had given me including beer, saturated fats, unsaturated fats, salt, sugar, coke, candy, wheat, meat, mustard, ketchup…I think you get the idea. What purpose does a cheeseburger serve for your life? I really hope you rail against obesity, heart disease, and poor eating habits as much as you do beer. They kill far more people than alcohol.
3. Drinking alcohol actually is making my life better, thanks for asking. It’s health benefits are well known (bonus!) and it allows me to interact with the friendly readers of this site. I’ve had conversations about Christ on numerous occasions over a beer…I guess is made their lives better, too.
4. Yes, drinking does give you a closer relationship with God. David saw it as a source of praise. In Psalm 104:15 David says that it gladdens a man’s heart…and food sustains a man’s heart. Notice in verse 13 of the same Psalms that David says “The earth is satisfied with the fruit of His (God’s) work and he goes on to name what he is talking about: (God) causes grass to grow for cattle, vegetation for man, etc. So, the fact that God gave wine did make David praise him. Ergo, it can make one closer to God. If you bothered to read more scripture and church history you would find that this is not an isolated case, but your presuppositions won’t allow you to see that, will they?
5. You are assuming that drinking is a bad example and that I’d be opposed to my children drinking as adults. You can set a good example by drinking responsibly just like you can set a bad one by being irresponsible.
6. See number 4 if you want to know what good has come from drinking. We would not have some of the Psalms and the rich metaphor in Song of Songs. Cana would not have been the economic engine that it was in Jesus time if not for wine. The wedding feast in Cana (Jesus’ first miracle) would never have happened. I mentioned the health benefits before. If you don’t believe me go to webmd or another credible medical source. I love pickles and other vinegar products. If it weren’t for drinking and fermentation we wouldn’t have these. No soy sauce, tabasco sauce (I’d stop using this if you do), and a ton of other things would never have existed if it weren’t for alcohol.
7. None. I can’t help if people have evil thoughts. I’m not responsible for their “thought life.”, only mine. What thoughts do people have when their not drinking. This is a weak appeal. Evil thoughts are endemic to being human, so unless we quit breathing air we’re stuck. Try to make that case.
8. None. I can’t help how people who drink too much behave when they’re drunk. I think that is part of the problem here. Numerous questions you pose assume alcohol is evil and that people are drinking too much. I can also ask what evil things people do when not drinking…again, weak appeal.
9. I like the taste. People have to answer this one for themselves. I suppose a moderate amount of wine gladdens some of their hearts, like David (that’s not such bad company). Question your motives and ask others what theirs are. This is what makes drinking a personal choice…maybe people should answer some of these questions. Point being, they must decide, not you for them.
10. I love my personality when I’m not drinking. Wait! Is that too prideful? I love my personality when I’m drinking, too. Because I’m not over doing it. My personality is the same. This is an interesting question though. Maybe people need to question whether or not they are deceptive about who they are when they are sober. Drinking tends to “bring out” the real person. I would look at why I suppress my personality and why I’m fake before I would why I drank a beer.
In conclusion, I wonder why soooo many Christians make excuses for not drinking. Maybe they should see their motives and arguments against drinking for what they are…chaff in the wind. Their anti-drinking argument is as pathetic as it gets in terms of scriptural use, historical grounds, Church history grounds, logical grounds and faith grounds. Everything in this world does happen to come from God, it’s how we use it that makes something sinful or not. Again, you say look at the people who have had lives ruined all around them from alcohol. Are these people who enjoy a beer or two? Or are these alcoholics you are talking about? Again, you are assuming the worse case scenario and building a straw man on top of it.
If you have perceived my tone as a little irritated, then you are right. I resent the implication that you are making about Satan taking a hold of people’s mind. If you are trying to say this about me or people on the site just say it and don’t beat around the bush. You say trust me when you drink, you don’t have your guard up. Do you know this by experience? If so, that explains your militance against drinking. If not, you don’t know what you are talking about. Which is it?
Ummm. Your allusion to our bodies being temple’s of the Holy Spirit is a reference to Paul. Did you know that he is specifically talking about sexual immorality in the text? Read it again, I’m sure that you will find he is not talking about drinking. Even if he was talking about the body as a temple in the general sense, you better watch what you eat, how much sun you get (melanoma is bad), and a host of other things as well. And once again, free and clear at all times assumes that someone has had too much to drink.
Again, why don’t you just say that we or I am more concerned with pleasing men rather than God? You certainly are presumptuous aren’t you? Do you know why I did 6 years of biblical studies and am with my wife here while she does a Ph.D in Old Testament studies? I could be more comfortable not spending all my money on learning scripture (Around $200,000 for both of us combined) but I did this because that’s what I think God wanted me to do.
Please do yourself a favor and actually read what the bible has to say about this topic. Don’t be a blind follower of whoever is telling you this. I’ll pray for you. Will you do the same?
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July 17th, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Sorry guys…that really got me amped up. The one you are reading now is revision three. Sometimes I’m still upset when I write, but my mind is ready to go at that point. I apologize if I was too harsh on Shelly.
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July 17th, 2009 at 7:04 pm
Pasteur beer_scientist,
What does the Bible mean when it refers to “wine or strong drink” ?
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July 17th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Wow, its seem I have gotten you quite offended! This must be something you have thought about for quite sometime. Actually in my post I’m not speaking directly to you or placing any blame on you, I’m just speaking gernerally. I know several people who continually try to justify their actions the way you do. I was a drinker in the past and made excuses for myself as to why I drank too. I was never an alcoholic but just drank to drink and it was something that I enjoyed at the time and grew up with and thought was perfectly normal and ok. I’m just speaking personally from my own life experiences. No one has taught me how to feel about alcohol and I do not have a degree in the Bible. I do know that the Bible does condemn drunkeness in several passages through-out . However I also do not know one person today that drinks and does not or has not gotten drunk. Lets be totally honest here drinking today is for the purpose of getting that buzz. I have not studied the Bible long enough to know everything there is to know on the subject. I am just a regular person who everyday is seeking God and his guidence for my life. I want to praise him and and honor him daily and I’m sorry I don’t know one person today who praises God wholeheartedly when they are drinking. I continue to learn and grow daily and I just know what God has placed in my heart. I do read from the Bible and what God has to say about alcohol & I don’t have any arguements as to the way you want to interpret it. I just know if you (generally speaking) want to have an right standing with God why let anything stand in the way of your relationship with God or hinder your growth. I think your (personally) getting too deep and too technical because you yourself are still a little unsure if it is right or wrong. Only you and God truely know whats in your heart. You have not convinced me that drinking is not a sin. Nothing you have said has convinced me. Therefore knowing what I know and seeing what I have seen I stand firm on my believes.
words to live by from Proverbs 3:5-7 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct your paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord and depart from evil.
I appreciate your response to my post and feel God has placed something inside of your heart and you will soon be enlightened with the truth!
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
Some scripture to read for those seeking answers:
Leviticus 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink……….
Numbers 6:3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink……
Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker strong drink is raging and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish…..
Isaiah 28:7 But they have also erred through wine, and through strong drink….
Micah 2:11 If man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, saying, I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people (read 2:1-11 for a better understanding of this)
In the Bible “wine” is not the same thing and “strong drink”, I think this is how people confuse the term wine
The best avice I can give is to just avoid it completely as it can and will hinder your growth in Christ.
“The believer’s body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. It is hard to think that we could pour liquor into the temple of God without defiling it.”
“It is also very difficult to think that anyone could worship God with his mind befogged by drinking. Even one ounce of liquor can begin to bring on intoxication.” by: CBN.com5 (a great site full of answers and info)
I recommend going to a christian site or the Bible for your answer, not a person who sells beer…..lol !!
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:57 pm
Hey Steve,
Thanks for the question. Well, distillation did not exist in the time of scripture, so it must mean something else. You are well aware that even now wines or beers can have strengths. So, the difference seems to lie in what is being fermented. First, wine seems to be fermented grapes. But there are other things that could be fermented; barely, for instance. Mead (made from honey) was also somewhat popular in the surrounding area. The amount of sugar in something can change the alcohol level. Hence, some fermented drinks were stronger than others by virtue of the fermentable sugars in them. Anyway, I think that this is meant to designate the quality of the drink in some respects. Hence, strong drink would be better drink in the mind of the drinker. Of course, this doesn’t take Whiskey and other distilled spirits into account. I would also like to note that the perception of how alcoholic a beer could be might be simply a matter of tasting it more.
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
Shelly, I’m offended by the poor teaching that happens in many churches, that’s all (and what I felt you were implying). It is telling that you admit you are speaking from your own experiences, which (lamentably) seems to be the normative paradigm for many people who read scripture. I think that is really what drives your attitude against alcohol, your previous response led me to believe that. If you don’t have a biblical argument against it, then you HAVE no argument. You are simply speaking extemporaneously. Don’t assume that I’m getting technical because I’m unsure. I’m getting technical because I’m showing how misinformed some of the assumptions being made are. Where else does what you said about that work. If you went to a doctor and he told you he needed to operate on your heart and told you that he really didn’t have any technical expertise, what would you say? How is it different if I’m getting into the nuts and bolts of the bible. I’m trying to give an informed and precise understanding, too.
God “places” all sorts of things on the hearts of people. Sometimes we can be wrong about that stuff. That is the nature of learning how to discern. You’ve never been wrong about something like that? I have. In fact, I had some of the same views you did about alcohol, which is why I want to be more understanding (but it’s hard because no amount of soundness will convince people who are bent on believing a certain way). I don’t feel I’m learning on my own wisdom either. Doesn’t scripture also say “study to show yourself approved.”?
I can’t convince you that drinking is not a sin. You ignore that Jesus drank wine, that Paul told Timothy to drink wine as a relief to his stomach (fight bacteria), and you ignore every other aspect of what I’ve told you. Who can convince anyone who has a mind that they’ve already made up? I admire people who stick to their convictions; but only with a reason to do so. It’s seems a bit like obstinately clinging to the idea that the world is flat. The evidence says otherwise, but you’ve got “convictions.”
It doesn’t matter that wine and strong drink are not exactly the same, both contained alcohol. That is a fact. On to the verses that you quoted.
Leviticus says for priests not to drink before entering the tent of meeting. That is a pretty specific command in pretty specific circumstances. It would pay not to just quote your bible concordance and actually look at the verses in question. Numbers 6:3 applies specifically to Nazarite vows. Proverbs 20:1 I’ve already talked about Proverbs and Song of Songs, so I don’t need to refute this (the discussion is intoxication, not drinking). Proverbs 31:6 is actually an admonition to give strong drink, not a prohibition (argument is self-defeating on this point). Isaiah 28:7 applies to drunkenness and priest specifically, so it is also not a prohibition on drinking. Micah 2:11 not even close to anything to a prohibition against drinking. By the way, we don’t sell any beer on the site.
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
Quite a response. Nate will chime in tomorrow, I’m sure.
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July 18th, 2009 at 5:25 am
Funny you should mention poor teaching in churches….I agree ! Most churches and most believer will still choose to consume alcohol even after knowing what they know. A lot of chruches even teach exactly how you are trying to teach. Have you ever been to some of the church festivals around? There is so much confusion on this subject as to weather its right or wrong which is why I choose to avoid it completely. The bible says, “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace.” – I Corinthians 14:33
For me personally I lose respect for a person who one day will be quoting the Bible and the next day be out in the bars or drinking. You should be very cautious before you decide to quote the Bible and tell people that it is ok for them to drink. If in the end drinking is not a sin than so be it, if I’m wrong I’m wrong and I can live with that and will not be punished. But if YOUR WRONG and drinking is a sin then you are teaching people wrong teachings and you will be judged differently. I feel sorry for what is to come for you.
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July 18th, 2009 at 5:58 am
This scripture refers to drunkiness. In our world today most of those who choose to drink do so to get that drunk or buzzed feeling. There are not many who drink only a sip or 2 and stop.
Proverbs 23:29-35 (NKJV): “Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has contentions? Who has complaints? Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes? Those who linger long at the wine, those who go in search of mixed wine. Do not look on the wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it swirls around smoothly; at the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like a viper. Your eyes will see strange things, and your heart will utter perverse things. Yes, you will be like one who lies down in the midst of the sea, or like one who lies at the top of the mast, saying: they have struck me, but I was not hurt; they have beaten me, but I did not feel it. When shall I awake, that I may seek another drink?”
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July 18th, 2009 at 6:18 am
Those who linger long at the wine being key.
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July 18th, 2009 at 8:15 am
I know this doesn’t actually speak about drinking in and of itself, but “everything is permissible but not everything is beneficial.”
For some people, drinking alcohol is a HUGE stumbling block. Those are the people who should avoid it altogether.
For others, drinking alcohol is a hobby or something they do because they enjoy the taste. But it has no influence over them to cause them to sin.
I find myself somewhere between the two, but because of recent experiences in my life with someone who is an alcoholic, drinking leaves a bad taste in my mouth (not literally). I enjoy wine. I enjoy a good beer. I do not enjoy hard liquor. But I have seen alcohol help to destroy someone’s life so it’s something I choose to stay away from right now because of the bad memories.
But that does NOT mean that my experiences and my situation is the same for everyone! It’s when people start assuming that everyone has to be like them is when the problem begins.
As for right now, because of my past and because of the experiences I’ve had, I choose to put hedges around myself when it comes to drinking and just avoid it altogether. But having a glass of wine is NOT the problem – being ADDICTED to wine and using it to soothe pain and put yourself to sleep IS the problem.
Because honestly, I think the only time that drinking is sinful is when someone who drinks harms others, or when someone who drinks is using that drink to dull their pain and make them feel better instead of turning to the one who made alcohol in the first place, Jesus.
All you theological people can probably slice apart everything I wrote, but I don’t really care…
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July 18th, 2009 at 8:45 am
Actually, I’m not going slice anything you said apart, because it was sound theology and had a basis. I’m in essential agreement with your view and I mentioned that it’s what we do with something that makes it sinful. I don’t feel I sliced anything apart, I simply pointed to the plain point of what the text was saying in the same way that you expounded Paul’s principle that you are quoting from Corinthians. He says in that verse also that he will not be mastered by anything, so if something does master that person I think it ought to be avoided. But my other point meshes well with what you said. Namely, people have to determine whether or not drinking is a problem for them and act accordingly. This should not be dictated by someone else’s convictions (that’s part of what you are getting at, right?). It’s funny how some people see the Pharisees as legalists and do the same thing themselves, isn’t it?
Well said, Elisha!
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July 18th, 2009 at 8:54 am
Exactly what I was getting at.
I know of people who sit down with their friends over a glass of wine or a martini and talk to them about Christ. Is that a sin? Or is it like what Jesus did when he spit in the mud and wiped it on the man’s eyes and healed him from his blindness. That was a sin in the eyes of the Pharisees, you know… on the Sabbath no one can work, even down to mixing dirt and water together to make mud. But what is the greater “evil?”
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July 18th, 2009 at 9:07 am
I did that over a beer at 7am on third shift when I lived in Springfield, MO and worked at Kraft. I had some very rich conversations with people. Of course, I don’t see this is simply a means of evangelism, which is why I rarely post something like this on the site. Like you said, some people enjoy the taste, too and that is cause for thankfulness…with the right attitude.
Thank you for adding to the discussion.
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July 18th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
I thought you did a great job with this article and I am looking forward to reading more of your work in the near future.
Not to be the one focusing on the wrong issue here, but satin is a type cloth. I believe the spelling one of the previous people was looking for was “Satan.” Of course, you never know.
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July 18th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Thanks for stopping off Logan. Yeah I noticed the spelling on that, too. I’m glad you appreciate what we wrote on the site. I expected a little backlash on this, but there is always someone to offend (of course, they don’t normally come back).
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July 18th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
Only certain people put you on their “favorites list” and I can live with that.
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July 18th, 2009 at 9:51 pm
Thought provoking post and comments! I would argue in contrast to what shelly said (way up top), everything in the world/universe/where-ever does in fact come from God. I would say god did create alcohol.
I would say (assuming alcohol is sinful to consume) that one just cant attribute the ‘good’ stuff in life to god and the ‘bad’ stuff to something else. There is one source, no? So then, how can it be sinful?
Maybe, as Ben Franklin opined, “Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Maybe alcohol is a GIFT from God, and unfortunately some people are simply too stupid or weak understand moderation, self control or responsibility, and then they project their own weakness onto everyone else.
If you feel you will lose all self-control and become a menace to yourself or others due to the consumption of a beer, then perhaps you are better off refraining. That’s not my situation, so it suits me fine.
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July 18th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
What more can I say? I’m out of words on this subject (I think I used my fair share). I agree, Scott. I think that beer is a great gift, but like numerous other things it can be put to bad use. Consider that internet we are using right now. It can be used to talk about beer or teach people how to make bombs…it’s what we do with it and how we use it (creation, invention, etc.) that makes it right or wrong. Double edged swords everywhere.
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July 19th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
I step away from blogs for a day, and BAM! This one explodes.
1. I enjoy the taste of beer, minus the light lagers out there.
2. Nourishment. Fellowship. A hoppy hobby.
3. Yes. Brewing beer is a hobby of mine, and provides a creative outlet. I do this with several other men from church. I’ve made great friends with this group of men.
4. Yes. As I just mentioned, the hobby of brewing beer is what brings several men from my church together on a regular basis. You’d be surprised at the depth of theological conversation that occurs at brew night.
5. A fine example. My children are being raised such that alcohol is not unfamiliar. They learn about how it’s produced. They are learning about the different varieties of beers available. When they ask for a sip, I gladly indulge their curiosity. The neo-prohibitionist agenda is not welcome in my home. With the familiarity my children gain in my home, they will be less likely to abuse alcohol when they set off for college. Even more so, if they are invited to a kegger, they will likely politely decline because college keggers overwhelmingly serve light lagers, a variety of beer which my children rightly shun as having no flavor.
6. Aside from the personal benefits cited above… Beer has been a safe beverage for consumption when the water supply is contaminated.
7. I don’t reckon I’ve had one that would be any different than when I haven’t been drinking.
8. None that I haven’t done when I haven’t been drinking.
9. It’s the taste. Have you ever tried a bavarian hefeweizen? Or a Belgain lambic? How about a northwest IPA? Espresso stout? Single hop pale ale? Nut brown ale? Kolsh? Dopplebock? Milk stout? Moose drool? Barleywine? Steam beer? Saison?
10. I drink socially. I drink alone. God is great. Beer is good. People are crazy.
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July 19th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Amen Brother. I got a little worked up over this one because I feel the same that you do. A myriad of theological issues get under my skin. But attacking adiaphora (sorry to use a protestant reformation term: matters of conscience) really kills me. Thanks for the input Big Tex…it really is a relief that not all believers are so narrow minded and pick meaningless fights.
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July 19th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
Tex, those kids need to be on “Kids say the darndest things.” What precious children.
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July 20th, 2009 at 1:14 am
Wow…amazing what you miss when you’re offline for a few days moving house (just like Tex noted…ha)
I grew up in a Methodist home, so no alcohol just because that’s how it was. We were all allowed to make our own decisions though, and my siblings and I have all come to appreciate fine dining, including alcoholic drinks.
So I completely agree with this post. The sin does not lie in the substance, it lies in the (ab)use. This applies to most anything I can think of. If we get our priorities wrong, anything can cause us to sin…including stuff that might be stereotypically good, like (ab)use of God’s word.
I’ll leave that there – there’s been more than enough healthy discussion of this topic here already. Good stuff.
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July 20th, 2009 at 7:51 am
Thanks David. Ironically, John Wesley drank and even brewed. It’s so strange that methodist don’t have a brew once in a while. I went to a Methodist seminary, so it’s strange to see the positions that people will hold sometimes. I’m really glad that you liked this and very gratified that people have responded so overwhelmingly.
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July 20th, 2009 at 11:30 am
@Big Tex: “I drink socially. I drink alone. God is great. Beer is good. People are crazy.”
My new motto….
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July 20th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
@ Nate… The “God is great. Beer is good. People are crazy.” comes from a country song. But, it is true, especially taken on its own.
And… I DO drink with the boys. I drink with my family. I drink a beer at night by myself. As Tom T. Hall once said, “I like beer“.
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July 20th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
I’d like to answer the questions too.
1. I like the taste and the adventure of finding and trying new beers.
2. It’s a hobby (my only hobby).
3. Absolutely, it’s my hobby and I enjoy it. It actually works well with my family life because I can do it at home, and it doesn’t take away from time with my family, unlike a hobby like bowling or softball would.
4. Do you use this as a measuring stick for everything that you do? Taking my kid to the park doesn’t meet this requirement, should I stop doing that?
5. It teaches her moderation. My kid never has and never will see me intoxicated, and instead is a regular witness to responsible alcohol enjoyment.
6. I met Mike, and I never would have without hanging out in liquor stores. I have several friends that I’ve met through and over beer.
7. No more than when I’m not drinking.
8. No more than when I’m not drinking.
9. The taste. I’ve drank with the intention of getting drunk once in the last 10 years. If I start to get a buzz, I stop drinking, because my tastebuds have been compromised.
10. My personality is the same either way.
Shelly said she’s trying to understand why so many make excuses for their drinking (admittedly out of context), and so do I, as there’s nothing to make excuses for! If you want to drink (and you’re not an alcoholic), do so, and ignore anyone who tells you there’s something wrong with it.
I was raised in a Baptist church, and my wife’s family is Catholic, but I’m not a church person. I live my life by a very simple code: don’t hurt other people. My drinking doesn’t hurt anyone because I don’t drive (could kill myself and others), and I’m not an alcoholic (would hurt my family).
I’m more than a little annoyed at the mindset that anyone who drinks is chasing a buzz, too. If that is what I was after, I’d buy $15 half-gallons of rot-gut whiskey, not $2-$30 bottles of beer. We’re not childish frat boys with funnels, we’re responsible adults from all walks of life. I’m sure you don’t want to be lumped in with faith healer conmen because you both say you love Jesus, just like I don’t want to be lumped in with reckless alcohol abusers just because I enjoy drinking beer.
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July 20th, 2009 at 8:43 pm
Well said, Howard. I think that the last part should be particularly emphatic. We are not frat boys looking to get drunk and the cost is evidence of that. That point is very much a strong appeal, I think, to the fact that this is about the fun and culture of the beer world. There will always be people like this out there who hate something without cause and consideration. I’m just glad we have some people with intelligence on this site. If you couldn’t tell, I was a little annoyed too.
Cheers (and I really mean it).
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July 21st, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Wow guys, your fine taste AND intellect really blew me away on this article. I have enjoyed reading the comments whilst moderately enjoying a Mike’s Hard Lemonade. Even though I feel like a sissy when I drink it, it just tastes so good. Keep up the good work…I wish I was motivated enough to put something like this out there.
I wish you both well!
Ted
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July 21st, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Thanks Ted! We really work hard at trying to maintain an informative and intelligent site. Don’t worry about the Lemonade. I never drink it because it’s too sweet and I love beer so much. I would encourage you to try new stuff; there is a whole world to discover outside Mike’s. It does take a bit of motivation and hard work to really make a site like this available. Thanks for appreciation of what we are doing…some people don’t. We wish you well, too.
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July 23rd, 2009 at 6:45 am
This post was, in a word, refreshing. Kind of like a Sierra Nevada Torpedo.
I identify so closely with the position you take and empathize with your frustration as you read Shelly’s response. It is good to know there is good exegesis being done in regards to the world of beer, and for that I thank you.
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July 23rd, 2009 at 6:54 am
Thanks Ben. I’m glad that you liked it. I think a lot of people share the frustration that we have. If you think this would be good for other people to read, send them this way. You’re very welcome…I was happy to write it.
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July 25th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
I love when religious people think that drinking is so wrong for them when they have no problem with pot lucks and feasting on fatty foods, fast food, and other things that are just as horrible for their bodies. I think obesity is more of a problem in out nation and I don’t hear the Christians up in arms about that.Tell me “what does eating that greasy burger doing to bring you closer to God? What sort of example are you setting your children? How many of our family members are now stricken with Diabetes? So funny. There are a lot of things in our lives when used in excess can become bad…I believe our lives should be balanced and we should appreciate the hard work and craftsmanship of those who make wines and beers. Its an Art and really a very beautiful part of life. I feel that God wants us to be happy and as Mr. Franklin said “Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
— Benjamin Franklin
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July 25th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
Thanks Cara. I was trying to push that point across to some people. It’s hard to justify why we are so against certain things that can be good for us in moderation and not those things that are really horrible for us. Luckily, I’ve gotten a good response from most people.
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July 26th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
While reading these post I remember AJ Jacobs addressing this issue in his last book The Year Of Living Biblically. In his research he found that there were nearly 250 mentions of wine or strong drink in the Bible. 59% of the time the drinks were seen as good or as a blessing from God. 16% reported drinking as unfavorable. The other 25% were neutral. Clearly you can pull from the 16% to make a point, but thankfully we have the other 84% to pull from and ponder. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord and enjoy one of his creations, Beer!
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July 26th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
Thanks John. I always like some nice intelligent things added to the discussion. I would be willing to wager that those 16% were drunkenness. Are you enjoying the stuff that we’ve been posting lately?
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July 26th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Yes I have enjoyed the posts. There has been lots of good dialog. Congrats on the new job. I hope all is well and that you and Andrea are adjusting to your new place. Keep up the good work!
Deanna and Jonathan said to tell you both hello.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:11 am
It is hard to clarify it any better than beer_scientist has already done.
I am always wary when someone comes out and pronounces an activity as a sin. There too many scriptures that put the responsibility of choices on the individual. To state that some particular activity that is “Not expressly forbidden” in the Bible is a sin; is a bit arrogant (bordering playing God). Some choices we make are not in our own best interests, but it does not make them sin. If I sit down to a bowl of ice cream, I know that I am not doing myself any favors…what is really the difference here? We have to make choices about our actions as it relates to our lives. If you do not have confidence that what you are doing is right, then you are at risk of committing a sin. If you are at risk of causing a brother to stumble, then you should abstain. We have freedom in Christ to live our lives and make choices that are consistent with the Scriptures and our personal convictions.
Romans 14
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
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July 27th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
Thanks Joe. I think that is a good point that goes to the marrow of what we are trying to relate. This really is the pet topic of some of the some people. Some of the grossly over weight from excess of ice cream and the like. Thanks for stopping by, we hope to see you back.
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August 3rd, 2009 at 10:35 am
Apparently a friend of a friend used this article for their Bible study this past Saturday…ha!
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August 3rd, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Really?! That is interesting. I’m glad it was useful to some people.
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August 15th, 2009 at 9:39 pm
Just wanted to add my two cents: found this article today that is mildly related. : )
http://www.globalbeer.com/body_pages/Texts/Church&Beer/Jesus.html
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January 2nd, 2010 at 9:54 am
[...] of the official Patron Saints of brewing. Isn’t it interesting that some branches of the Church embrace this aspect of human innovation and others degrade the very notion? I think it is. Of course, Saint Arnold Brewery has picked [...]
April 19th, 2010 at 12:39 pm
You know, guys, I’ve read a lot of the responses and comments on this string, and it leads me to a few fundamental questions. What kind of person would propose that taking some kind of medication (usually a narticotic) to cause sleep when needed, or a drug to help combat ADD (usually a speed derivative) is OK if it’s prescribed by a doctor, and yet a glass of wine or a beer or two that accomplishes the same thing, or a dose of caffine (coffee) is wrong or sinful? What a self-righteous hypocrite a person would be that would take that kind of stance. And to further the concept, what about taking ANY kind of drug? If, in fact, our body is our temple (and I believe it is) then what exactly is allowed in or on our temple that won’t defile it? I believe people should very carefully remember that we are counciled that we should “… judge not, lest (we) be judged…” I think it is one thing to be righteous, and a whole ‘nother thing to be self-righteous. Live the way you choose, and allow me to do the same.
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beer_scientist Reply:
April 19th, 2010 at 2:04 pm
P.S. You are welcome back anytime. Please visit us again.
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April 19th, 2010 at 1:53 pm
Zooba,
First of all, thanks very much for the comment. I agree about the medical analogy and feel that some people are inherently hypocritical about the issue. I actually thought about writing a follow-up article concerning alcohol as an analgesic. I think that it’s perfectly fine to sip when feeling restless or even to dull some pain. I also think that we ought to be careful to avoid addiction in the same way that we might narcotics, which is why the doctor has some say about when, what strength, and how much to prescribe. Obviously, since I wrote the article, I don’t have issues with drinking.
Apropos to extending it to other kinds of drugs, I’m not really qualified to speak on the topic. However, I do think we have to be careful about the degree that we push the principal. Like you mentioned with the narcotics, doctors prescribe. I think the reason they had to be controlled was based on abusive incident. Because of that I’m not willing to go quite as far as you are on allowing any type of drug use. My main contention is because, often times, those who become addicted hurt others as well. So, there is a point where license infringes on others. We need to be able to define and control those boundaries before we can give license (at least in my opinion).
As I said, Paul’s specific argument relates to sexuality, so I’m not to caught up on eating a burger, drinking a beer, etc. Anyway, I’m a little more cautious about things that are highly addictive because they have the ability to control us if we let them.
It’s interesting that you point out the statement of Jesus about judging. The context leads me to believe that he is talking about the very judgement you are point out. Hypocritical judgment is in view. i.e. if you tell people not to do X, do you do that very same thing? So, it’s not a blanket statement not to have discretion and not to think that something is wrong. Instead, it’s important to remember that we should be able to dialogue, like we are here, and not be closed off to each other’s input. And I appreciate yours!
I very much agree with most of your sentiments and am not personally able to reach some of the same conclusions in regard to “everything being permissible” (as Paul said). I say this because, “not everything is beneficial”. To me, it’s at the point where it’s not only become un-beneficial but dangerous that we need to guard ourselves.
At any rate, we really appreciate that you left a comment and contributed to the collect dialogue on our site.
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